Commas, US usage different?

[lissie]

I just got rejected because of poor use of commas and got given some references for US usage http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/ ... comma.html

Is there a difference between UK and US usage ? My grammar is generally done by feel, I've only learnt English grammar by learning foreign languages but some of the stuff in the purdue reference seems wrong.

The one that stands out to me is:
"The Constitution establishes the legislative, executive, and judicial branches of government."

I always thought that the "," was replaced by the final "and" so that this sentence is correct:
"The colours of the American flag are red, white and blue"

I also noticed this sentence as an example:
"Because her alarm clock was broken, she was late for class."

This was being used as an example for commas so maybe its forced but to me its really bad English: you never start a sentence with because and its the wrong way around. I would have thought the correct sentence was "She was late for class because her alarm was broken".

Is this a difference in usage? I made the change because I want the thing accepted but as I am writing in UK English for that audience I don't think is right?

My other problem is dependent/independent clauses - this is not US/UK usage - its just me. Purdue gives the example of
"The game was over, but the crowd refused to leave." as two independent clauses, but how is "the crowd refused to leave" independent - the crowd refused to leave where? it seems incomplete to me.

Like I said, I do grammar intuitively because if I think to much I go around in circles.

I've resubmitted the article with almost all the long sentences replaces by shorter ones to avoid commas, which is how I normally avoid the problem. It just got me thinking because I was trying a slightly different style and ran into this issue.

[Celeste Stewart]

Sorry Lissie, but grammar rules trump "grammar by intuition." The Owl Purdue site is one of the best grammar authorities on the Web. Strunk & White's "Elements of Style" and Noah Lukeman's "A Dash of Style" are excellent grammar/punctuation books, too.

The "awkward" examples are technically correct though the serial comma can go both ways, often with clarity dictating comma usage.

My dog, Fred, and Rudy are in the backyard.
My dog, Fred and Rudy are in the backyard.

Is the dog named Fred? Or are three beings involved?

The sentence "Because her alarm clock was broken, she was late for class." is correct. While the structure may not be standard, it is okay. This particular structure changes the meaning of the sentence slightly. For example, "She was late for class because her alarm clock was broken" answers the question of "Why was she late for class?" However, by shifting the sentence, in the example given, we're seeing how the alarm clock affected this girl. If we could see the context of the story, one structure may be preferred over the other.

Sally woke up to discover that her room had been ransacked while she slept. Because her alarm clock was broken, she was late for class. But even worse, she would need to figure out why an intruder had bothered to smash the alarm clock yet left the jewels behind?

Sally crept into the lecture hall and hoped that the professor wouldn't notice. She was late for class because her alarm clock was broken. However, she knew that excuse wouldn't cut it with Dr. Hyde.

Ack. Perhaps you can see the nuances each sentence structure implies?

[Celeste Stewart]

Continued from above ---- (I hate this 2000-characters per post limit. . . grumble grumble)

"The game was over, but the crowd refused to leave." In this case, "the crowd refused to leave" stands on its own as a sentence. We don't need to know what they were supposed to leave as the context from other sentences will show this:

As the riot police closed in, the crowd pushed forward. With tanks rolling in and a political upheaval in the works, the stakes were high. The crowd refused to leave.

I know that UK punctuates quotation marks differently than we do in the US, but I'm not sure about commas.

[Amy W]

Hi Lissie! Not sure if this will be much help, but it's how I remember where to put a comma. If your sentence can be arranged in two different ways, stick a comma in it. For instance, "Because her alarm clock was broken, she was late for class" can also be arranged as "She was late for class because her alarm clock was broken". The sentence is two clauses that can be arranged in a different way, so there is a comma. If the sentence had been "Her broken alarm clock made her late for class", there would be no comma since there is only one clause.

And "The crowd refused to leave" is a complete sentence. For a sentence or a clause, all you technically need is a subject and a verb. The words, "I am", are technically a sentence. It might not explain anything, and it might not be the greatest sentence in the world, but it is still a sentence. So the sentence "The game was over, but the crowd refused to leave" is two separate clauses - two subjects and two verbs. Think of it this way, if you can write it as two separate sentences - "The game was over. The crowd refused to leave." - then you have two independent clauses. If you join the clauses together in a compound sentence, then you need to separate them by a comma.

Not sure if any of this helped you. It sure is bringing back memories of high school, though!

And I can sympathize with you. I'm from Canada, and our grammar is a weird mix of English and American - I have a hard time remembering which rules I'm supposed to follow!

[lissie]

Yes Im curious to hear from a British writer because I don't need anymore confusion in my grammar. The comma example with unsure number of dogs seems to be just to need a sentence re-write, if you are relying on a comma for clarity its a bit subtle, especially on the web!

But the list comma I am sure Iwas taught that:
The common colours of the rainbow: red,yellow,green and blue are created by the refraction of light through the rain.

is correct the colon introduces the list and the commas separate items except for the and which replaces the comma on the last where the "and" makes the comma redundant. Is that not acceptable in US usage?

Amy the trick of being able to switch the order is handy - I think I will return to just rewriting to two separate sentences instead: I'm surpristed Ed picked me for commas - I would have picked me for too long a sentence LOL

I also put a comma if I need to take a breath when reading aloud, that seems to get all the introduction and "explanatory clauses which isn't acutally needed" commas in the correct place!

Is Ed one person? I find that there are things that some people love and some people hate which are more personal taste than rules, and do get the feeling in this case different people reviewed my two similar, but different, articles.

[Celeste Stewart]

The serial comma (aka Oxford comma) can go both ways. Both are acceptable unless clarity is at stake. Here's a good post in Ed's blog about it:
http://www.constant-content.com/blog/in ... ford+comma

The comma example with the dog, Fred, and Rudy was just that, an example (or is that Rudy, Fred, and the dog?). You're correct, a simple rewrite is all that's needed when sentences are unclear due to comma usage or misusage. It helps to have a good resource on your desk that you can refer to when unsure. In the US, we have several leading style guides: AP Style Guide, Chicago Manual of Style, Strunk and White's Elements of Style, and others. I'm sure that the UK must have something similar. Maybe Jak or one of the other UK writers knows of a good one.

[BarryDavidson]

[quote] The common colours of the rainbow: red,yellow,green and blue are created by the refraction of light through the rain. [/quote]

The common colours of the rainbow: red,yellow,green, and blue are created by the refraction of light through the rain.

Both are correct. It all depends on where you went to school, not to mention when.

I used to do some line by line edits for a British friend. I had a lot of trouble trying to convert it to a more American feel. Especially with spelling. We have color and you have colour for example. I got over it by reading more British authors so my eyes wouldn't stop every time a word was spelled differently.

[JD]

Lissie

Hi. The following sentence is a good example of why, sometimes, the comma is needed:

I would like to dedicate this article to my children, Rachel and God.

Maybe the writer did have two children named Rachel and God. But he probably meant his children, Rachel, and God.

I think sometimes you can get away with not using the Oxford Comma, but it's probably a good idea to get into the habit of using it. I see it missing quite a lot in both American and English publications. (I'm English, by the way, living in Canada.)

I don't think UK English rules on comma usage differ to US English rules.

Jane

[jak]

I'm English, and I don't think our rules on commas are any different from American ones either.

Lissie, because you say that "you never start a sentence with because", I assume you believe that sentences should never begin with conjunctions. Actually, that's in common use now and can be very effective. In the sentence I used above, putting the reason first places more emphasis on it.

Here's a quote from Gowers' Complete Plain Words (first published 1954, my Pelican version, 1976):

"There used to be an idea that it was inelegant to begin a sentence with and. The idea is now dead." He goes on to say that it is often used this way to show it is reinforcing something that has already been stated.

(Apologies if I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, as they say.)

[lissie]

LOL jak no problem. It could be that I was taught an old-fashioned way. The only person who ever really corrected my grammar was my mother who left school pre-WW2 and a thesis supervisor in my honours year in 1983 when he was well in his 70's - so it could be a hangover over from an earlier generation.

I've written reports professionally for years in IT - but no one ever corrects commas - you're lucky to get it pointed out that you are not using the write :-) word! Of course getting onto the internet I am even laxer! This is the only site that moderates for anything more than the grossest error of usage and English. I try not to be too illiterate in my freelance writing but most stuff I do is edited by no one but me.

[Ed]

Thanks, all, for your detailed and insightful replies.

While Constant Content recognizes that we have writers from all over the world writing according to the styles most favored in their countries of residence, when it comes down to it, most correct usage is the same. In any case, the respected resources we have chosen will mitigate any disagreement.

While I favor the Oxford comma because I feel it heightens clarity and is in more frequent use by respected publications, leaving off the last comma will not be a cause for rejection unless Constant Content adopts a style book that says differently.

Commas are tricky - too many, and the writing becomes cluttered, too few, and it becomes muddled. Better to follow comma rules as outlined by Purdue's OWL site, and/or structure sentences so that the need for comma usage is reduced through concise writing. Introductory words and phrases take commas. Compound sentences take commas. Clauses in the middle of the sentence must be set off by commas on both ends.

Web writing is not a lower standard of writing. While Google search and reader trends force us to make sure our writing is informative from the outset, is easily digestible, and uses a lighter/more predictable vocabulary, clarity is still of the essence. Proper punctuation is an element of clear writing. Customers are more likely to buy clear writing because it will capture readers. These readers may come back to the site time and again in search of more clearly presented information.

Thanks,
Ed

[edoran]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this or if it's even true, but my second grade teacher (in Ireland, so British rules probably :) told us that list commas developed because of money. Theoretically, the correct usage in lists is that there is always a comma preceding the 'and.'

"I like to eat fruit, vegetables, and candy."

However, printing was expensive so newspapers and publishers saved money by dropping the seemingly unnecessary comma. Instead they would print

"I like to eat fruit, vegetables and candy."

Because people consider a publication that has passed through who-knows-how-many editors to be an authority, they learned that as correct usage... or so says Ms. Courtney.

[Celeste Stewart]

That's funny! The other day, I picked up my newspaper and noticed how light and thin it is now compared to a few month ago. The paper has shrunken the comics pages and everything else - I assume to save paper and printing costs. Plus, advertisers are getting scarce. Perhaps they also have been dropping their commas to save space :) Thanks for sharing that interesting tidbit.